@TheMann what became of the Monon in the Amigoes universe? I remember some proposals you floated in the past included the Erie Lackawanna and Canadian National. Whereas one option I considered for the Dankverse is the Southern Railway.
Top Locomotives Never Built
- Thread starter Duke Andrew of Dank
- Start date
Never really decided that one. We didn't expressly lay out everything that happened, of course.
Any of those (CN, EL or SOU) would be good choices because for all of them it would fill in a hole in the network or act as a logical expansion. Any of those, however, mean a lot of trackwork as the Monon route was fairly lightly built and will need better track and some route adjustments to be a modern operation.
Personally, I prefer the idea of the Southern getting the line because it'd give it a direct link to Chicago, which it lacked to the very end in OTL. With the Erie Lackawanna as my runner-up choice.
It's been a while here so I come back with a-vengeance. This time I come bearing my ideas for an expanded Filipino railway network. One of these lines is the Ferrocarriles Imperiales de Cesarea Caroli on what is at the time the Spanish possession of Cesarea Caroli but by now is better known as Mindanao. Specifically, this is for the 1890 era 1,672 mm (5 ft 5+13⁄16 in) gauge line between what is a TTL a colonial port at Davao City and a regional centre at Digos.
Ferrocarriles Imperiales de Cesarea Caroli No.1 Cesarea Caroli and its Class
Built: 1889
Number Built: 4
Wheel Arrangement: 4-6-2T
Builder: Robert Stephenson & Co.
Operated: 1890-1957
Nicknamed the "Radial Pacifics" after the LSWR 4-4-2T Radial Tanks they were based on, the Cesarea Caroli and its associated class were the first locomotives built for the Colonial FIdeCC in the Spanish Philippines. The first Pacific tanks built anywhere in the world, they were designed to be a more stable and slightly more powerful option than the Adams Radials. The intention was to have a set of moderately powerful locomotives that could operate all traffic on the line, be equally stable in forward and reverse and operate relatively well over rough track. The reason that an LSWR design had been selected was largely down to involvement with the project. Although led by a Spanish company, connections with the LSWR in Britain had seen a number of their engineers bought on to assist and through them, they recommended the works of William Adams to the Spanish. With the expectations of steeper grades on the line in the future, Adams would redesign the class from the ground up, employing only really the frame and running gear design from the Radial. The firebox was overall deeper and the boiler slightly longer but outwardly the design looked very similar to the Radial Tanks. Only four would ever be built by Robert Stephenson & Co. with the FIdeCC buying a tranche of 0-6-0STs in 1892 to assist with further construction.
Upon their introduction, No.1 along with No.3 would haul the first locomotive hauled trains in Mindanao in 1890, dealing with all traffic between the port at Davao to Digos station and occasionally running on the branch to Malalag after 1892. A lack of initial regional population density at the Digos end meant that most traffic was freight but within a few years Digos had started to develop into a sizable settlement with other communities growing up around flag stops on the line. The Radial Pacifics then saw their role shift more towards passenger traffic with the 0-6-0STs taking up the slack on freight workings by 1894. However, even at this early stage the sun was starting to go down on the Radial's time at the forefront of the FIdeCC, especially with the original planned line to Surigao and a number of other branches. Damage by the Philippine Revolution between 1896 and 1898 delayed completion of the Surigao line but by the time the lines were finally finished the American rule of the Philippines had firmly begun. Like most Spanish owned companies, the FIdeCC was sold off with a consortium of American & British Businessmen buying it. What this meant was new locomotives and by 1902 several new 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s and 2-8-0s had been delivered from various manufacturers.
This change in management and indeed the nature of the line saw the Radial Pacifics (Now numbered 201-204 as the Digos, Davao and Surigao's Class 200) put onto secondary services. They replaced the 0-6-0s completely on the Malalag Branch between 1905 and 1910 and with the opening of the Davao Loop Line they were put onto services there from 1910. Again, with the expansion of Davao's population, the locomotives became underpowered for the increasing train weights, particularly with the introduction of American Bogie Coaches in place of the old FIdeCC 3 axel stock. After 1916, the class were transferred to work the newly opened branch in the North of Mindanao between Bayugan and the coast at Lianga but this would prove to be their final move in full traffic. In 1922, the DDSR realised that these engines were getting obsolete rapidly and so their replacement was ordered. In 1924, the first of the Class 210s from Beyer Peacock would arrive, giving the DDSR a large class of Mikdao tank engines to replace a number of older tanks bought second hand or new. The Radial Pacifics were demoted to whatever duties were left, with 202 shunting Davao del Norte Yard, 203 and 204 serving as station pilots for Surigao Union Station and 201 serving the same duties at Davao Central. 203 would be scrapped in 1930 with spares used to keep the others running but the rest would last well up until WW2.
During the opening days of the Second World War in the Pacific, No.204 would fall victim to Japanese attacks having been bombed during the Surigao Air Raids which targeted the station, yard and port facilities. Following the beginning of the occupation, the Japanese would also take 202 to Luzon where it was regauged to 5 ft 3 in and put to work in the Cagayan Valley to replace a similar tank engine blown up by partisans. 202 would eventually also meet a similar fate when raids by the Filipino Resistance blew it and its train of supplies up in late 1944. This left only 201 which managed to pull through the war unscathed and lasted long enough to even persist until Government Restructuring saw all Spanish Gauge lines on Mindanao merged into one company - the United Mindanao Railway Company. The UMRC would designated 201 as a Class 1TS, a designation used for miscellaneous switching tank engines from previous companies, and it would be renumbered to 5537. Surprisingly though, it was not quickly withdrawn bouncing around various sheds as a sort of mobile steam generator-cum-yard goat up until 1957 when it was finally withdrawn from Davao del Norte Roundhouse. Although the intention was to just scrap it, the Davao Historical Society saw value in its preservation and following a cosmetic restoration to FIdeCC condition, it was plinthed outside of Davao Central in 1965.
Again any questions do feel free to ask. Long and short of it is the Spanish, after seeing the benefit of local level tramways, are a lot less nonchalant about railway construction in the Philippines and by the 1940s (war notwithstanding) the country stands in a much better stead to go into the post war era that it does OTL.
Ferrocarriles Imperiales de Cesarea Caroli No.1 Cesarea Caroli and its Class
Built: 1889
Number Built: 4
Wheel Arrangement: 4-6-2T
Builder: Robert Stephenson & Co.
Operated: 1890-1957
Nicknamed the "Radial Pacifics" after the LSWR 4-4-2T Radial Tanks they were based on, the Cesarea Caroli and its associated class were the first locomotives built for the Colonial FIdeCC in the Spanish Philippines. The first Pacific tanks built anywhere in the world, they were designed to be a more stable and slightly more powerful option than the Adams Radials. The intention was to have a set of moderately powerful locomotives that could operate all traffic on the line, be equally stable in forward and reverse and operate relatively well over rough track. The reason that an LSWR design had been selected was largely down to involvement with the project. Although led by a Spanish company, connections with the LSWR in Britain had seen a number of their engineers bought on to assist and through them, they recommended the works of William Adams to the Spanish. With the expectations of steeper grades on the line in the future, Adams would redesign the class from the ground up, employing only really the frame and running gear design from the Radial. The firebox was overall deeper and the boiler slightly longer but outwardly the design looked very similar to the Radial Tanks. Only four would ever be built by Robert Stephenson & Co. with the FIdeCC buying a tranche of 0-6-0STs in 1892 to assist with further construction.
Upon their introduction, No.1 along with No.3 would haul the first locomotive hauled trains in Mindanao in 1890, dealing with all traffic between the port at Davao to Digos station and occasionally running on the branch to Malalag after 1892. A lack of initial regional population density at the Digos end meant that most traffic was freight but within a few years Digos had started to develop into a sizable settlement with other communities growing up around flag stops on the line. The Radial Pacifics then saw their role shift more towards passenger traffic with the 0-6-0STs taking up the slack on freight workings by 1894. However, even at this early stage the sun was starting to go down on the Radial's time at the forefront of the FIdeCC, especially with the original planned line to Surigao and a number of other branches. Damage by the Philippine Revolution between 1896 and 1898 delayed completion of the Surigao line but by the time the lines were finally finished the American rule of the Philippines had firmly begun. Like most Spanish owned companies, the FIdeCC was sold off with a consortium of American & British Businessmen buying it. What this meant was new locomotives and by 1902 several new 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s and 2-8-0s had been delivered from various manufacturers.
This change in management and indeed the nature of the line saw the Radial Pacifics (Now numbered 201-204 as the Digos, Davao and Surigao's Class 200) put onto secondary services. They replaced the 0-6-0s completely on the Malalag Branch between 1905 and 1910 and with the opening of the Davao Loop Line they were put onto services there from 1910. Again, with the expansion of Davao's population, the locomotives became underpowered for the increasing train weights, particularly with the introduction of American Bogie Coaches in place of the old FIdeCC 3 axel stock. After 1916, the class were transferred to work the newly opened branch in the North of Mindanao between Bayugan and the coast at Lianga but this would prove to be their final move in full traffic. In 1922, the DDSR realised that these engines were getting obsolete rapidly and so their replacement was ordered. In 1924, the first of the Class 210s from Beyer Peacock would arrive, giving the DDSR a large class of Mikdao tank engines to replace a number of older tanks bought second hand or new. The Radial Pacifics were demoted to whatever duties were left, with 202 shunting Davao del Norte Yard, 203 and 204 serving as station pilots for Surigao Union Station and 201 serving the same duties at Davao Central. 203 would be scrapped in 1930 with spares used to keep the others running but the rest would last well up until WW2.
During the opening days of the Second World War in the Pacific, No.204 would fall victim to Japanese attacks having been bombed during the Surigao Air Raids which targeted the station, yard and port facilities. Following the beginning of the occupation, the Japanese would also take 202 to Luzon where it was regauged to 5 ft 3 in and put to work in the Cagayan Valley to replace a similar tank engine blown up by partisans. 202 would eventually also meet a similar fate when raids by the Filipino Resistance blew it and its train of supplies up in late 1944. This left only 201 which managed to pull through the war unscathed and lasted long enough to even persist until Government Restructuring saw all Spanish Gauge lines on Mindanao merged into one company - the United Mindanao Railway Company. The UMRC would designated 201 as a Class 1TS, a designation used for miscellaneous switching tank engines from previous companies, and it would be renumbered to 5537. Surprisingly though, it was not quickly withdrawn bouncing around various sheds as a sort of mobile steam generator-cum-yard goat up until 1957 when it was finally withdrawn from Davao del Norte Roundhouse. Although the intention was to just scrap it, the Davao Historical Society saw value in its preservation and following a cosmetic restoration to FIdeCC condition, it was plinthed outside of Davao Central in 1965.
Again any questions do feel free to ask. Long and short of it is the Spanish, after seeing the benefit of local level tramways, are a lot less nonchalant about railway construction in the Philippines and by the 1940s (war notwithstanding) the country stands in a much better stead to go into the post war era that it does OTL.
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@TheMann If the Maine 2ft gauge at large can't live past the 1930s, how do these ideas sound?
- The lines are built earlier, around the 1850s, and unite to create a network from Wiscasset to both Greenville and the Rangley Lakes region by 1870.
- The Greenville - Wiscasset line becomes a line for interchange, and in the early days the railroad uses transfer cars not unlike those of the OTL's Padarn Railway in Wales.
- By 1900 however, the Canadian Pacific buys up the line and converts the Greenville - Wiscasset line to Standard Gauge as well as the leg to Farmington. However, the Strong - Rangley Lakes section of the railway remains 2ft and powered by a robust fleet 2-6-2s as well as Forneys and railbuses.
- Although the 2ft gauge is abandoned by 1936, preservationists save up a good deal of it, and run several of the 2-6-2s on it. Like OTL the Forney tank engines go the Edaville Railway in Massachussets.
OOC: The idea to play around with Maine narrow gauge ideas was inspired by @NHBL so shout-out to him.
- The lines are built earlier, around the 1850s, and unite to create a network from Wiscasset to both Greenville and the Rangley Lakes region by 1870.
- The Greenville - Wiscasset line becomes a line for interchange, and in the early days the railroad uses transfer cars not unlike those of the OTL's Padarn Railway in Wales.
- By 1900 however, the Canadian Pacific buys up the line and converts the Greenville - Wiscasset line to Standard Gauge as well as the leg to Farmington. However, the Strong - Rangley Lakes section of the railway remains 2ft and powered by a robust fleet 2-6-2s as well as Forneys and railbuses.
- Although the 2ft gauge is abandoned by 1936, preservationists save up a good deal of it, and run several of the 2-6-2s on it. Like OTL the Forney tank engines go the Edaville Railway in Massachussets.
OOC: The idea to play around with Maine narrow gauge ideas was inspired by @NHBL so shout-out to him.
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I mean I've kind of thrown realism to the wind with my Maine/Quebec/New Brunswick narrow gauge but I will still throw my two cents in. That seems like a somewhat reasonable way of getting more 2ft to survive beyond the 1930s. I still think a number of regional logging lines could still run well into the 1950s which might explain the survival of some more unusual locomotives.
On an unrelated note, what are peoples thoughts on Cab Forwards on the SOU's Rathole division (possibly a 4-6-6-2 or bigger). I have been thinking of some steam designs for the Rathole and don't particularly want a garratt which was my first instinct.
I went with a Garratt in my own universe specifically because the Rathole's lines are too light for more conventional locomotives. That, and Garratts are bidirectional which is advantageous to infrastructure spending.
I was admittedly thinking most of my TL's Wiscasset & Rangely locomotives would be 2-6-2s and 2-8-2s until the very end.
Could they have built a double ended Fairlie? Although carrying enough fuel could be a problem.
Fairlies were already tried on American railroads... it didn't go well.
Really, only Garratts are truly viable for the Southern rathole.
I'm going to have to break this easily to some of my Garratt-o-phobic American co-conspirators
Well on some thought I'm trying to work out if something like say a Union Garratt or large Kitson Meyer like this example below. Its either that or probably a Double Mountain Garratt.
Personally I went for a Garratt based on the South African GEA type in my AU.
I might go for something like this but what are peoples thoughts on that?
You're better off just sticking to a conventional garratt.
Personally thinking along the lines of a RENFE Garratt type thing now or possibly something like the AD60 but blown up and with a trailing axel deleted. There is also the Sharratt (a Shay-Garratt proposal) which might be funny as hell for another use.