Top Locomotives Never Built

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@TheMann if you imagined the prr S2 being introduced earlier and more successful perhaps this could happen ?

Pennsylvania Railroad Class V1

The Pennsylvania Railroad Class V1 was a Triplex steam turbine that was supposed to be built by the Baldwin Locomotive Works as well as Westinghouse; it's streamlining was going to be designed by Raymond Lowey The Pennsylvania Railroad Class V1 was supposed to be a mechanical drive steam turbine...

locomotive.fandom.com

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@TheMann if you imagined the prr S2 being more successful perhaps this could happen ?

Pennsylvania Railroad Class V1

The Pennsylvania Railroad Class V1 was a Triplex steam turbine that was supposed to be built by the Baldwin Locomotive Works as well as Westinghouse; it's streamlining was going to be designed by Raymond Lowey The Pennsylvania Railroad Class V1 was supposed to be a mechanical drive steam turbine...

locomotive.fandom.com

As long as the needed design mods were made?

 

[TheMann]

The V-1 would have the same advantages as the S2, and the same disadvantages which would ultimately over-ride the benefits. The S2 needed a smaller turbine for low-speed operation (it was an absolute pig on fuel at low speeds, this would fix that at the cost of being higher maintenance) but it was for the most part reliable and it was very, very fast and efficient at higher speeds....compared to other steam engines. It was still very weak in the tractive effort department compared to diesels, which is the primary thing you need to beat if you're thinking of these as diesel replacements.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

The V-1 would have the same advantages as the S2, and the same disadvantages which would ultimately over-ride the benefits. The S2 needed a smaller turbine for low-speed operation (it was an absolute pig on fuel at low speeds, this would fix that at the cost of being higher maintenance) but it was for the most part reliable and it was very, very fast and efficient at higher speeds....compared to other steam engines. It was still very weak in the tractive effort department compared to diesels, which is the primary thing you need to beat if you're thinking of these as diesel replacements.

To be fair I have come to accept that diesels would probably win the day no matter what. To me the turbines just mean a few more unique museum pieces later on.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@TheMann perhaps if it's better to have EMD buy up Baldwin after it goes belly up, maybe we can see "Passenger Sharknose" like the ones for the PRR, but with guts closer to the RF-16?

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@TheMann Any Mexican steam locomotives unique to the Amigoes universe?

 

[TheMann]

@TheMann perhaps if it's better to have EMD buy up Baldwin after it goes belly up, maybe we can see "Passenger Sharknose" like the ones for the PRR, but with guts closer to the RF-16?

By the time that happens the E-series and F-series will have taken over the market.

I know why you're saying all of this, but there is just no way to make an EMD Sharknose happen and be successful. The Sharknose was designed around the Baldwin 608 prime mover (which, if you've ever seen one, is a completely different engine in pretty much every way to any comparable EMD or Alco unit), AAR trucks, Westinghouse electrical components and air-powered throttle units, all of which are incompatible with most or all EMD products. Why design around all of that when you have a good unit to begin with in the F-series?

@TheMann Any Mexican steam locomotives unique to the Amigoes universe?

We never decided that one way or another, but its logical.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I know why you're saying all of this, but there is just no way to make an EMD Sharknose happen and be successful. The Sharknose was designed around the Baldwin 608 prime mover (which, if you've ever seen one, is a completely different engine in pretty much every way to any comparable EMD or Alco unit), AAR trucks, Westinghouse electrical components and air-powered throttle units, all of which are incompatible with most or all EMD products. Why design around all of that when you have a good unit to begin with in the F-series?

That's fair. I had just remembered how your old universe had EMD redesign the Sharknose and AS-616 after the bought Baldwin-Lima's remains.

 

[TheMann]

That's fair. I had just remembered how your old universe had EMD redesign the Sharknose and AS-616 after the bought Baldwin-Lima's remains.

It was pretty much just as much of a redesign to use conventional throttles and EMD generator and wiring.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

It was pretty much just as much of a redesign to use conventional throttles and EMD generator and wiring.

Understood. Still would've been nice to see another few preserved. Like I had for my idea for a Michigan Railway Museum in Niles a few days back.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

We never decided that one way or another, but its logical.

Perhaps those Garratts I proposed could come in use. Maybe in the southern half of Mexico like Guatemala and Nicaragua.

 

[TheMann]

Perhaps those Garratts I proposed could come in use. Maybe in the southern half of Mexico like Guatemala and Nicaragua.

Probably not, because in the world of the Three Amigos the railroad infrastructure built in later years (after about 1890, basically) is built to the highest possible standards, particularly in places like Southern Mexico where the terrain and population density mean you need to build the railroads with heavy infrastructure - double-track main lines (and many secondaries) with the mains having routes with many tunnels, cuts and embankments to reduce the grades and curves involved. Mexico here invests heavily in its Central American provinces in the early 20th Century and one of the major investments was hydroelectric power facilities, so likely the main lines are going to be electrified after about 1920 - not sure if they use AC or DC power yet, but the two railroads that dominate Mexico south of the Altiplano were both built with heavy railroading in mind.

Mexico here goes to electric and diesel power early for both nationalistic and environmental reasons. The Yucatan, some sections of Central America (especially on the Pacific side) and parts of the coastal regions (north of Veracruz to the Rio Grande and Monterey and from Tepic northward to perhaps Ciudad Obregon) are well-suited for steam power but the mountainous of desert regions really aren't, and the Mexicans here rate facilities built by General Motors EMD, General Electric and Krauss-Maffei who build diesel and electric locomotives for the market. Mexican railroads initially (like many of their American counterparts) bought diesels from many makers, but quickly the market coalesced around EMD and GE, while Krauss-Maffei dove into the market as everyone was looking for more power in the late 1950s and early 1960s. (The SP and DRGW K-Ms were built in Mexico in this world.) The "Krauts", as they came to be affectionately known, proved more popular in Mexico and Canada than the United States, and the ML 4000 was followed by the ML 4500 in the mid-1960s, and as the EMD, GE and Chrysler-Alco six-axle units swelled in power, K-M jumped straight to the ML 6000 in 1971, which used two 20-cylinder Maybach engines and Mexican-developed transmissions which proved absolutely bulletproof in service - some ML 6000s ended up with over 40 years of service before retirement, and while the United States never liked diesel-hydraulic units, Mexico and Canada used them extensively.

 

[TheMann]

It should be pointed out that in this world the bigger market for railroad equipment in general generates more companies that are involved in the business. It goes without saying that General Motors' Electro-Motive Division and General Electric's GE Transportation division are the largest two players, the American Locomotive Company (co-owned by Chrysler Corporation and Emerson Electric) in third place, a solid third nevertheless helped along by their use of proven engines and technologies and the company being the largest maker of mass transit vehicles in North America, which helps with economies of scale. Siemens lies in fourth, it's biggest markets being in passenger engines and electric locomotives as well as rolling stock. Next in line is Morrison-Knudsen, which makes excellent electric locomotives, big freight engines and rebuilt units and is the North American license holder for Stadler, resulting in North American products of the Austrian firm having the name "Stadler-MK" on them. Diesels made by Alco, Siemens and Morrison-Knudsen all use somebody else's prime movers - Alco products use Cummins QSK series diesel engines, Siemens uses MTU Freidrichshafen power units and Morrison-Knudsen units use Wärtsilä engines after the company bought Sulzer's diesel engine division in 1991. Bombardier, Caterpillar and Brookville Equipment are also in the business but only in more specialized products, in the former's case passenger equipment and in the latter's case freight engines using their own motive power units, and North American railroads with suitable shops (and most of the bigger ones have these) regularly re-manfacture locomotives for new purposes.

Railroad cars are made by a variety of manufacturers, with the largest passenger car builders being Bombardier, Siemens, Budd, Morrison-Knudsen, CAF, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Toluca Car Works and the St. Louis Car Company, while the majority of freight cars are manufactured by the likes of Greenbrier, ACF, Procor, GIMSA, National Steel Car, Gunderson, Brookville Equipment, Union Tank Car Company, Bethlehem Steel and Castanos Works. While all North American trains use many similar specifications - all are built to standard gauge and all use Janney couplers at almost-identical heights and schedule 26L air brakes and the vast majority use similar-sized (generally 36" diameter) wheels - there are a number of legal differences between jurisdictions, with Canada and Mexico requiring double-stack container cars to physically hold the top container and piggyback cars having to physically hold the trailer at both ends, while Canada no longer allows the North American-standard DOT-111 tanker cars to be used in hazardous materials service. All three countries require hazardous materials cars to have double-shelf couplers to prevent the couplers from puncturing the car in the event of a derailment and both the United States and Mexico are phasing out older designs for hazmat service. AAR Plate C-1 is the basic minimum loading gauge for the entirety of the North American network (including the electrified Northeast and Empire Corridors, both of whom are limited by clearances into tunnels in New York City, Boston and Baltimore) while the vast majority of the mainline network in North America has AAR Plate K clearances, allowing the use of such cars as trilevel autoracks and double-stack container loads even on electrified routes, as wiring heights have been raised in order to ensure arcing is avoided, particularly on routes that use 50 kV electrification. As all railroads in North America have been advancing the use of containers of all sizes for cargo transport since the 1960s - from smaller 'Railbox' containers suitable for individual shippers and 'Railskid' pallets to Liquid Intermediate Bulk Containers to aircraft-specification ULD pallets and containers to full-size ISO shipping containers - many railroad freight cars have been sized to fit these as snugly as possible both together and inside railroad cars, with many boxcars having floor rollers to accommodate the faster and easier loading and unloading of these boxes from cars.

Some services go further than the basic requirements. The "Super C" high-speed freight service, introduced by the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe and New York Central Railroads in 1965, introduced special requirements for freight cars used in the service (namely the use of disc brakes, high-speed bearings and tightlock couplers to ensure safe running at the 110 mph top speed of the service), requirements that have since become almost de rigeur on many classes of freight cars used in high-speed services. One result of this was the proflieration of a mechanical device meant to apply very high initial brake pressure on car brakes at high speed before lowering the pressure as the train slows. This device, patented by the Union Pacific Railroad in 1933, is now basically universal on all container, piggyback, autorack and refrigerator cars as well as parcel, auto parts, food service and smaller-container boxcars and many flatcars.

Union operating rules on all major North American long-distance carriers require the use of three-man crews on all trains, while Canada and Mexico require a fourth man on all trains carrying hazardous materials in its consist. (Several American railroads, including the Conrail, Southern, Burlington Northern, Santa Fe and Southern Pacific, also use the fourth man on hazardous materials trains.) Shunting crews and hostlers usually work in pairs and locals (defined as runs to service customers directly at distances of under 60 km in Canada and Mexico and 42 miles in the United States) are allowed to run with two-man crews as well, though many railroads use three-man crews, usually with two engineers, as a way of speeding up switching operations at customer sites. The proliferation of Locotrol remote-control systems has resulted in distributed power being very common on trains in North America, and while crew members on the rear of trains in required on all trains greater than 50 cars or 3,000 ft in length in all three countries, the use of distributed power has resulted in power units instead of cabooses on the back of trains and two power units being the norm on switching operations, rendering the caboose almost extinct in most locales. Signal systems vary by railroad but all three countries require cab signaling systems and automatic train control on all tracks where speeds of over 75 mph are allowed, and in practice the additional safety cab signals give has made them almost universal in North America.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

@TheMann what would the results be of the proposed merger of the 2ft gauge railways in Maine? Personally, I already can imagine that if it wants to last long, it would have to be rebuilt to standard gauge eventually, especially if the proposed extension to Quebec were to happen. But I also imagine that maybe 2' 6'' gauge, 3', meter, or 3' 6'' would work better for such a railroad.

 

[TheMann]

@TheMann what would the results be of the proposed merger of the 2ft gauge railways in Maine? Personally, I already can imagine that if it wants to last long, it would have to be rebuilt to standard gauge eventually, especially if the proposed extension to Quebec were to happen. But I also imagine that maybe 2' 6'' gauge or 3' 6'' would work better for such a railroad.

I don't see the ability of these lines to survive beyond the early 1930s regardless of extensions and what gauge they choose, simply because for the tracks and roadbeds available improved roads and trucks will make them much more economical at about the worst possible time, as the existing lines start to need major rehab for their rolling stock and track. For North America, aside from a handful of places, standard gauge simply works best.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I don't see the ability of these lines to survive beyond the early 1930s regardless of extensions and what gauge they choose, simply because for the tracks and roadbeds available improved roads and trucks will make them much more economical at about the worst possible time, as the existing lines start to need major rehab for their rolling stock and track. For North America, aside from a handful of places, standard gauge simply works best.

Perhaps it could begin conversion to standard gauge in the early 1920s?

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I don't see the ability of these lines to survive beyond the early 1930s regardless of extensions and what gauge they choose, simply because for the tracks and roadbeds available improved roads and trucks will make them much more economical at about the worst possible time, as the existing lines start to need major rehab for their rolling stock and track. For North America, aside from a handful of places, standard gauge simply works best.

@TheMann alternatively it could be united, but still undergo a fate similar to OTL. The difference being a Rangley Lakes Railroad Museum in Rangely, and maybe some Mikadoes built for the line in the 1920s.

 

[Bbone91]

I keep hearing about the Three Amigos timeline, can someone share a link? Is it a railroad timeline?

 

[TheMann]

I keep hearing about the Three Amigos timeline, can someone share a link? Is it a railroad timeline?

The Three Amigos

The timeline myself, Joe Bonkers and isayyo2 cooked up. It's a very different world, and one where not only are the three nations of North America considerably bigger in population, but Mexico is a first world nation, Cuba, Puerto Rico and Panama are US states, most of the Caribbean Islands (outside of the American islands and Hispaniola, of course) are part of Canada. There, the heavy industry of North America remains in many forms and owing to a combination of different development patterns, nuclear energy being a major part of the world and an energy crisis kicked off a massive mass transit and passenger rail boom in the late 1950s and early 1960s that never really slacked off. As a result, the world of trains is much different, as evidenced here.

 

[TheMann]

This is what is available from the major locomotive builders as of 2024 in the world of the Three Amigos. Of course, this is just for North America, as the export market for most of these makers would go for pages and pages.

Electro-Motive Diesel
Parent Company: General Motors
Headquarters: McCook, Illinois, USA
Assembly Facilities: McCook, Illinois, USA; Eddystone, Pennsylvania, USA; Zamora, San Luis Potosi, Mexico; London, Ontario, Canada
Engine and Component Manufacturing: Cleveland, Ohio, USA; Flint, Michigan, USA; Eddystone, Pennsylvania, USA; St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada; Rancho Nuevo, San Luis Potosi, Mexico

Four-axle Diesel-Electric: GP70AC-T4, GP75MAC-H, F125 "Spirit" [1]
Six-axle Diesel-Electric: SD70MX-2A, SD70ACe-T4, SD70ACe-XC, SD89ACe-T5, SD90MAC-H, SD95MAC
Eight-axle Diesel-Electric: SD89ACe-BB, SD90MAC-BB [2]
Four-axle Electric: AEM-10B
Six-axle Electric: PS21B-V3, PS22C, GM24 "Vision"
Six-axle Switcher: MP40AC
Four-axle Road Slug: PS6RS
High-Speed Train Set: X 4000VA [3]

GE Transportation
Parent Company: General Electric
Headquarters: Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Assembly Facilities: Erie, Pennsylvania, USA; West Colton, California, USA; Fort Worth, Texas, USA; Empalme, Sonora, Mexico; Loretito, Aguascalientes, Mexico; Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Engine and Component Manufacturing: Grove City, Pennsylvania, USA; Tucson, Arizona, USA; Acaponeta, Nayarit, Mexico; Blainville, Quebec, Canada

Four-axle Diesel-Electric: P45AC "Genesis II"
Six-axle Diesel-Electric: EST44AC, EST44C4, EST60ACi, EST80ACi [4]
Eight-axle Diesel-Electric: EST80ACBi [5]
Six-axle Electric: E84C, E80C
Ten-axle Electric: EP70-V2U [6]
Six-axle Switcher: PH26ACi
Gas Turbine-Electric: TS150-VT4
High-Speed Train Set: HS4-12, HS4-16

American Locomotive Works
Parent Companies: Chrysler Corporation, Emerson Electric, Cummins
Headquarters: Schenectady, New York, USA
Assembly Facilities: Schenectady, New York, USA; Roseville, California, USA; Montreal, Quebec, Canada;
Engine and Component Manufacturing: Lansing, Michigan, USA; Columbus, Ohio, USA; Ferguson, Missouri, USA; Belvidere, Illinois, USA; Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

Four-axle Diesel-Electric: Millennium 245DPI
Six-axle Diesel-Electric: Millennium 250DP, Millennium 260DP, RF70LCe, RF80LCe [7]
Eight-axle Diesel-Electric: RF80LB2e [7]
Six-axle Electric: Millennium 275EP
Four-axle Switcher: Millennium 255GS
High-Speed Train Set: 500NA Series, 900 Series [8]

MK Rail
Parent Companies: Morrison-Knudsen, Stadler Rail
Headquarters: Boise, Idaho, USA
Assembly Facilities: Boise, Idaho, USA; Salt Lake City, Utah, USA; Sacramento, California, USA
Engine and Component Manufacturing: Sacramento, California, USA; Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA; Vancouver, Washington, USA

Four-axle Diesel-Hydraulic: DH24V [9]
Four-axle Diesel-Electric: MP40PH-4C, MP54AC, HSP50, Stadler 4000 [10]
Six-axle Diesel-Electric: MK6000C-2e, MK6500C-2e
Four-axle Electric: AEM-12B [11]
Six-axle Electric: AEM-15C

[1] Carbody unit meant for commuter service and operating in non-electrified areas for passenger service.
[2] These are designed for Brazilian railroads and are designed for 5'6" track gauge, but EMD has a 4'8.5" version available for North American customers if they want to order it.
[3] These train sets are built by EMD under license from ABB and Kalmar Verkstad
[4] The EST80ACi is a 7500-horsepower diesel electric using a 20-cylinder version of the GEVO engine
[5] Built originally for China Railways, but as Chinese and North American railroad standards are nearly identical, these are available for North American customers to purchase if they wish
[6] The EP70-V2U is a two-unit articulated electric locomotive with a C-B-C truck arrangement, meant for heavy-hauling operations
[7] The RF "Railfreight" series of diesels are hood units built by Alco to complement the carbody-styled Millennium Series of locomotives. Both are very similar mechanically, both using Cummins OSK series engines and Emerson electrical components. The RF80LB2e is the biggest single-unit locomotive offered in North America at 83'6" in length and with the largest single-unit diesel ever produced by Cummins, the 24-cylinder, 7800-horsepower QSK142
[8] Alco has been joined at the hip in its high-speed train efforts since the 1980s with Kawasaki Heavy Industries, and while the 500 Series Shinkansen has been mostly retired in Japan they are highly popular in North America and remain in service, while the 900 Series is an Alco-KHI development based on many of the design clues of the Fastech 360 experimental trains
[9] The DH24V is a Vossloh Modula design, adapted for the North American market and available with a variety of powertrains
[10] The Stadler 4000 is the Vossloh Euro 4000 Passenger locomotive design, operated by Amtrak, Via Rail Canada, Auto-Train and Rocky Mountaineer Railtours
[11] This is a passenger-electric design developed by Morrison-Knudsen using Swiss electrical components, aiming to replace aging AEM-7ACs in Amtrak and NdeM service

I'll finish the Siemens, Bombardier, Caterpillar and Brookville units in a future post.