There is one thing that the Despotate can do to smooth its relationship with the Knights. The Pope had banned Christians from trading with the Mamelukes. A major genoese export toEgypt in OTL was mastic. The Hospitallers captured at least one genoese ship with mastic. The solution is rather simple: the Pope's ban applies to good Catholic men. Schismatics are not under Rome's purview. The Despotate might find it easier to export mastic with their own ships, instead of selling it to Genoese merchants. The Hospitallers can take a cut for protecting schismatic ships in the seas around Rhodes. A power that controls Chios and Samos can be useful to the Knights when they raid the Emirate of Aydin.
The eagle's left head
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
Well ain't that ominous. With the German emperor dead and with Robert neutral or even allied to the Despotate then Frederick is kind of cornered and kind of not. What I mean is that you can easily see Alexandros as cornered as he has inquired the wrath of the King with no real ally and really 2/3 of Sicily against him. I wonder if Robert will make an expedition to restore his rule over Sicily and help the Vatatzes or will he stay in the sidelines and make his move at the most opportune moment?
From what we know Messina and Syracuse are quite formidable defenses and the Despotate's navy is big for it's size. We know that the Despotate also has a lot of really experienced veterans of 4 years of war in Morea. Also they possess one of the best generals of the era. I don't see the Sicilians win in this endeavor really but the whole point is what is the Despotate gonna gain. It took 4 years to subdue Achaea so I don't see them gaining Sicily in its entirety. So maybe take the south ? Like towards Agrigentum/Akragas? It is a nice strip of fertile land and would expand the influence and power of house Vatatzes.
On the other hand this war could go into a stalemate and maybe Alexandros goes fully independent in Sicily although what I find more probable is Robert coming in after some years of war and taking the rest of Sicily while both the combatants are exhausted. This is quite bad for the Vatatzes as having one powerful ruler above them and the themselves being weaker after a bloody war with not a lot of gains could mean that the Anjou would try to control them more.
Well let's see how this goes. At least Theodore is slaying some Turks for fun.
I wonder if the new "Holy Roman" Emperor will have the stomach to continue the war...
Also it was fun to read the conversation between Robert and Ioannis!
On a linguistical side note...
In which language do a Katepano of Hellas and a German Hospitaler based in Rhodes confer ? I assume Greek would be the natural choice here, given the region. However, knowing how well meaning and reasonable are the Hospitalers, surely they would not demand to speak in, let's say, Latin or any proper non schismatic language, just to make a point and show who is superior ?
And while we are at it, what is the language at the court of Frederick III? Back in Syracuse, I'm pretty sure that is Greek, but I don't how linguistically the Sicilian language has evolved at this stage, or what language would the elites of the Kingdom of Sicily have spoken. French perhaps, since between the Normans and the Angevins, you had quite a long period of French or French descended nobility ruling the realm; not unlike in England where French had been the language of the nobility until late in the Hundred Years War.
In which language do a Katepano of Hellas and a German Hospitaler based in Rhodes confer ? I assume Greek would be the natural choice here, given the region. However, knowing how well meaning and reasonable are the Hospitalers, surely they would not demand to speak in, let's say, Latin or any proper non schismatic language, just to make a point and show who is superior ?
And while we are at it, what is the language at the court of Frederick III? Back in Syracuse, I'm pretty sure that is Greek, but I don't how linguistically the Sicilian language has evolved at this stage, or what language would the elites of the Kingdom of Sicily have spoken. French perhaps, since between the Normans and the Angevins, you had quite a long period of French or French descended nobility ruling the realm; not unlike in England where French had been the language of the nobility until late in the Hundred Years War.
On the orientation of the war, it's looking dire for Frederick. As he ambassador told in thought, he would have dealt with the traitorous schismatic "Duke" in Syracuse after winning against Robert, based on his refusal to obey the King's command. But I guess the same reasoning still applies after a defeat.
How likely are Frederick and the barons aligned on him to seek an excuse for the defeat in Alexandros' "betrayal" and declare him in forfeit of his titles and lands ?
Philip II of France did the same for less (answering a royal summon to stand trial here) about the continental possession of John I 'Lackland'.
How likely are Frederick and the barons aligned on him to seek an excuse for the defeat in Alexandros' "betrayal" and declare him in forfeit of his titles and lands ?
Philip II of France did the same for less (answering a royal summon to stand trial here) about the continental possession of John I 'Lackland'.
Hmm a bunch of Catalans forming an Empire around this time as a last hurrah of Latin Greece before more permanent nations/empires are set up is a really fun concept, and I'd expect the Catalans to be a serious rival to the Vatatzes for a while considering their actions in Greece and the Balkans.
Crushing the Menteshe Beylik's navy as per usual is good for the Vatatzes, but I wonder would we see them conquer the Beylik during the interim between 1313 and 1350 if they can get something between them and the Knights Hospitaller. The Beylik was very important for Turkey and I'd think taking it would change a lot of things.
Well we're getting a war between Frederick and Alexandros aren't we? Frederick is only making is position worse by doing so, and there's no way Robert won't notice and benefit from it. I think the war would only lead to the further weakening of Frederick's realms as Alexandros' and Philanthropos' armies would be able to fight knights pretty effectively considering their pioneering of pike and (crossbow) shot.
tbf that's something I could defo see considering that Chios is part of the realms of the Vatatzes, and there's no reason why Despotate traders would listen to the pope in general.
I wonder would the Vatatzes with them slowly taking over the knights Hospitaller after they swear loyalty to the Despot attempt to conquer the coastal Beyliks and take over bits of western Anatolia, considering that Anatolia is still full of Lascarid loyalists and would welcome the return of Lascarid rule.
tbf Alexandros could pull from Morea even if Robert and Andronikos do nothing (and I'd think Robert would attempt to help the Vatatzes indirectly even if he doesn't directly intervene at first, but Louis and Frederick of the HRE should be pretty preoccupied as of now) as a weaker Sicily is good for him in general. I think it depends on how good the Vatatzes does. If they could pull off a convincing victory Robert would help them seal the deal, and there's a possibility that Alexandros just takes over the entire island and becomes a vassal under Robert. I do think that Alexandros would win a good enough victory to at most take some lands off the Barons and that Syracuse and Messina mostly get through the war unscathed with Calabria and the silver mines still being as productive as peace time.
I do think the war wouldn't be too long as Philanthropos' tactics (I'm pretty sure he'd have been training the army diligently and writing treatises about the form of warfare he is creating) would be very effective against the knights of Europe and would still be pretty effective against nomadic hordes especially when the pikemen are trained well. I do wonder what weapons would be used tho. I think alongside pikes and swords shorter polearms which are used to deal with armoured opponents like billhooks or halberds would start popping up too (considering that the despotate is in italy, and I wonder would light infantry use those weapons as the equivalent to swordsmen in pike and shot formations alongside the cavalry of the armies of the Despotate.
I think we'd see war no matter what, and considering the Vatatzes' new tactics where the infantry becomes more and more important they'd be able to swamp countries with much bigger populations because the levies they're using won't just get crushed by cavalry which were the war winners for this period, and we'd see a series of wins from the Vatatzes against numerically advantagous forces because of it.
The new tactics are certainly a boon, but I think the main advantages lay in the political structures of the Despotate.
Unlike Frederick's part of Sicily, Alexandros is pretty much undisputed ruler in his land, no vassal to beg to or to convince following the military decisions you took.
The more concentrated political structure of the Despotate enables a more coherent and lasting strategic vision, which is a net plus in a war against Frederick's barons.
Besides, as Alexandros alluded to in his defiance of Frederick before the parliament, and Theodoros has shown off Amorgos in his dealing with the Hospitalers, the Greeks have a more pragmatic, flexible approach, which contrasts with the more ideological position of Frederick; that means in practice Frederick might get some early wins, but in the long run, Alexandros is just going to wait him out.
That might be something like: the royal army plus mercenaries invade, Philantropenos refuses open battle and wage guerrila, while Vatatzes galleys sink the royal fleet, raid royal and enemy barons domains from the sea, until Frederick who is stuck in multiple sieges, sees his treasury bleed, his forces whittle down from desertion and mercenaries who could not longer be paid, attempt to raise taxes, some barons finally think the war against Alexandros is not worth the new taxes, peasants have enough of the same taxes... Unless Frederick is lucid enough and can overcome the humiliation and not fight to the end even if alone, the war is going to end with Alexandros at the gates of Palermo and deposing Frederick.
He could then seize the crown for himself, as he has a valid claim, but that would mean extending the war several more years to reduce other barons, like Ioannis did in the Peloponnese, but with his own domains in eastern Sicily ravaged by the invasion and western Sicily being far less amicable to the perspective of a Greek ruler than in the east, I doubt he would be keen to indulge unnecessary blood spilt. It would be far easier for him to put Frederick's infant son Peter (born in 1304 if I get it right) on the throne and Queen Eleanor, Robert's and Ioannis' (in-law) sister, as a more friendly, reasonable and pliable regent.
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Vince
Monthly Donor
CK requirements to make a Kingdom title are having three ducal titles, right? He's got Calabria. Sicily and Acehea. Just saying Alexandros...
tbf I defo think the new tactics are very important but having the will to fight and the ppl to see it through is just as if more important. Alexandros and co defo have that in spades and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I do think the first few engagements would be quite dicey for Alexandros and co with stuff like not being able to prevent a few castle towns from being blockaded, but no decisive engagement would occur, while Philantropos bleeds the Sicilians out until Alexandros is confident of the balance between the two forces, by which he'd probably lead an army and attempt to relieve the blockades the Sicilian armies are doing on land, while Theodore score the first few wins by decimating the Sicilian navy in Messina or somesuch.
Considering Calabria and Achaea tho, I defo think the period between waiting it out and fighting wouldn't be far off, and that Alexandros would attempt to keep the status quo, which is rebuffed by Frederick. Alexandros would be forced to take more and more of his neighbour's lands as time went on to recoup his losses, and as the common man in those lands found Lascarid rule to be more agreeable when the war ends they attempt to stay with Alexandros.
I don't think Alexandros would claim the Sicilian crown as he's more cautious than that, and he'd lose a lot of advantages of being able to play robert against frederick and vice versa while not having to deal with the pope feeling threatened by a greek schismatic taking over a kingdom that's just made relatively recently. Considering his early life in Constantinople he'd know the circumstances won't favour him in the long run if he does it. I could see Ioannes or Theodore attempt it in the future though, they have always been treated as the heirs to a king despite their official status and I think they'd do it while Frederick IV weakens the Kingdom and the Hungarians march against Naples to take Sicily and crown themselves accordingly. Maybe while going through western Anatolia and pushing beyond Corinth.
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I'd suppose that, given their situation, that the Hospitallers would have been pragmatic enough as for them to be willing to use whatever lingua franca that both sides would be comfortable enough to use for communicate...
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The despot likely wouldn't mind if they did would he?I chuckled at the "first work, then fun" quip.
Maybe the hospitalers may pay homage to the Despot ?
One notes Martino Zaccaria was given a papal exception...
That... remains to be seen.
At a minimum Alexandros conquering the rest of Sicily, assuming he can, would likely get Robert after him...
For what it's worth the chronicle of the Morea survived in Greek, French, Catalan and Italian versions. Likely all four languages and formsl Latin are known and in use as necessary.
Well what was the court language under Frederick in OTL? I short of suspect Catalan, after all it was Frederick's native language.
So in Palermo, back in July 1312, Alexandros, the King and the parliament debated in Catalan ? That's just curiosity on my part.
The Hospitallers certainly knew Greek or at least have plenty of Greek translators for members who don’t.The crusaders in Levant spoke both Greek and Arabic.
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At around 1320 if memory serves right. I think it might be more difficult for Vatatzes to obtain a papal exemption. Unless .... Unless during the conflict with the ghibelline Frederick, King Robert supports the petition of his loyal vassal.
Alexandros is also too cautious to do so especially with Robert as the effective ruler of Italy considering that Frederick is weaker than otl.
Hmm wouldn't Latin or some dialect of Sicilian be used instead?
Hence deposing Frederick and installing a pliable regency by Ioannis' sister in law makes more sense.
I'm thinking something in the lines of the virtual rule of Simon of Monfort during Henry III's reign with the Vatatzes the real power behind the throne. That would invite other problems down the road, especially when Peter comes of age, but what's the alternative?
Part 33
Palermo, February 1314
Ferdinand of Majorca married Isabella of Sabran. Since Isabella was daughter of Margaret Villeharduin the second daughter of William II, the late prince of Achaea this gave Ferdinand a claim on the principality. One backed by the house of Aragon...
Avignon, April 1314
Pope Clement V died. His death would spark a crisis in the church as French cardinals clashed with Italian cardinals over the election of the new pope and returning the papacy to France or returning it to Italy. It would take two years till a new pope was finally elected.
Palermo, June 1314
The Sicilian parliament proclaimed Peter, Frederick III's son heir to the throne of Sicily, openly tearing down the provisions of the treaty of Caltabellotta about Sicily being Trinacria and reverting to Naples after the death of Frederick. Of course with war already restart after the Sicilians had joined up in the imperial attack of Siciy, maintaining the treaty provisions was somewhat moot. Following the death of Henry VII, king Robert was not particularly willing to forget the attack on him. But neither were the Sicilians willing to offer terms to secure peace.
Halmyros, Thessaly, July 1314
John II of Thessaly had been forced to call for imperial aid against the Catalan encroachment of his realms. Michael IX Palaiologos had marched south to his aid, and no doubt im hopes of securing Thessaly for the empire at the head of an army that for certain considerably outnumbered the Catalans. but despite its numbers his army was severely lacking in cohesion and discipline consisting for the most part of peasant levies and mercenaries. At the news of the Catalans approaching the peasants had fled. Then the mercenaries had start to slip away. Michael, personally "one of the bravest knights in the world" as the Catalan chronicler Ramon Muntaner would write, found himself nearly on his own as his army virtually melted under him and was forced to retreat as the Catalans put the port of Demetrias under siege.
Trapani, October 1314
Robert d' Anjou had first landed in Castellamare. From there his forces had raided the countryside, not good in a country that had already suffered three bad harvests in a row before moving further west to besiege Trapani. Here the Angevin advance had been checked though between the Sicilians army holding the mountains near the city and a fleet of 44 galleys coming from Palermo to the defenders aid. But while the Angevins may have failed to take Trapani, the Sicilians had also failed to dislodge them and faced problrms of their own as Frederick lacked money and provisions. Orders had been sent to the east to requision both from Vatatzes lands, careful management there and trade with the east meant they had weathered the last few years much better than the parts of Sicily under direct royal rule. But Alexandros had refused requisitions. Frederick could buy grain and provisions for cash. It was only too bad that he did not have cash in the fist place. And it was just bad lack that Robert had money and could buy the very same provisions Frederick could not afford. And thus with neither of the two kings able to make any headway against the other they had agreed to a two year truce. War would resume in 1317. Or perhaps not.
Demetrias, April 1315
Bernat I of Rocafort received the Sicilian envoys in the recently conquered city. His campaign in Thessaly now in its third year was progressing well between John II's weakness and Michael's inability to stop him the previous year. Neopatras and Demetrias were already in Catalan hands and his army hadd already marched to besiege Larisa when the envoys came to bring him the request of his majesty Frederick III, king of Sicily, no longer Trinacria he noted to himself, to invade the principality of Achaea in support of Ferdinard of Majorca. An interesting proposition this one. The Morea was a rather tougher nut to crack that Thessaly. But a rich one. And it wouldn't be a good idea to forgo the requests of the House of Barcelona. Not when most of his men still felt loyal to them and he was bound to need their support. As soon as Larisa fell. No reason to let the effort already spent them go to waste. In the meantime his own envoys good go to Aydin to recruit mercenaries...
Castrogiovanni, June 1315
The Sicilian parlianent, sans the representatives of eastern Sicily who had refused to join and had instead held a rival parliament in Catane proclaimed "Alexandros, the schismatic so called duke of Syracuse" a traitor to the kingdom of Sicily and condemned him to death. The royal army was already on the march to invade Vatatzes holdings just as the Sicilian fleet took to the sea.
Glarentza, Peloponnese, July 1315
Infante Ferdinand, landed near the port at the head of 500 knights and a large number of infantrymen. He would soon be joined by John II Orsini in besieging the city. The count palatine of Cephalonia was the only of the great Achaean lords to survive Vatatzes invasion by surrendering when he had the opportunity. But this did not mean he liked his new overlords. If nothing else his three sisters had all been married to various dispossessed lords in the principality. Then they were too overbearing for his tastes. Sooner or later Theodore would find an excuse to try to remove him. Better preempt him...
Ferdinand of Majorca married Isabella of Sabran. Since Isabella was daughter of Margaret Villeharduin the second daughter of William II, the late prince of Achaea this gave Ferdinand a claim on the principality. One backed by the house of Aragon...
Avignon, April 1314
Pope Clement V died. His death would spark a crisis in the church as French cardinals clashed with Italian cardinals over the election of the new pope and returning the papacy to France or returning it to Italy. It would take two years till a new pope was finally elected.
Palermo, June 1314
The Sicilian parliament proclaimed Peter, Frederick III's son heir to the throne of Sicily, openly tearing down the provisions of the treaty of Caltabellotta about Sicily being Trinacria and reverting to Naples after the death of Frederick. Of course with war already restart after the Sicilians had joined up in the imperial attack of Siciy, maintaining the treaty provisions was somewhat moot. Following the death of Henry VII, king Robert was not particularly willing to forget the attack on him. But neither were the Sicilians willing to offer terms to secure peace.
Halmyros, Thessaly, July 1314
John II of Thessaly had been forced to call for imperial aid against the Catalan encroachment of his realms. Michael IX Palaiologos had marched south to his aid, and no doubt im hopes of securing Thessaly for the empire at the head of an army that for certain considerably outnumbered the Catalans. but despite its numbers his army was severely lacking in cohesion and discipline consisting for the most part of peasant levies and mercenaries. At the news of the Catalans approaching the peasants had fled. Then the mercenaries had start to slip away. Michael, personally "one of the bravest knights in the world" as the Catalan chronicler Ramon Muntaner would write, found himself nearly on his own as his army virtually melted under him and was forced to retreat as the Catalans put the port of Demetrias under siege.
Trapani, October 1314
Robert d' Anjou had first landed in Castellamare. From there his forces had raided the countryside, not good in a country that had already suffered three bad harvests in a row before moving further west to besiege Trapani. Here the Angevin advance had been checked though between the Sicilians army holding the mountains near the city and a fleet of 44 galleys coming from Palermo to the defenders aid. But while the Angevins may have failed to take Trapani, the Sicilians had also failed to dislodge them and faced problrms of their own as Frederick lacked money and provisions. Orders had been sent to the east to requision both from Vatatzes lands, careful management there and trade with the east meant they had weathered the last few years much better than the parts of Sicily under direct royal rule. But Alexandros had refused requisitions. Frederick could buy grain and provisions for cash. It was only too bad that he did not have cash in the fist place. And it was just bad lack that Robert had money and could buy the very same provisions Frederick could not afford. And thus with neither of the two kings able to make any headway against the other they had agreed to a two year truce. War would resume in 1317. Or perhaps not.
Demetrias, April 1315
Bernat I of Rocafort received the Sicilian envoys in the recently conquered city. His campaign in Thessaly now in its third year was progressing well between John II's weakness and Michael's inability to stop him the previous year. Neopatras and Demetrias were already in Catalan hands and his army hadd already marched to besiege Larisa when the envoys came to bring him the request of his majesty Frederick III, king of Sicily, no longer Trinacria he noted to himself, to invade the principality of Achaea in support of Ferdinard of Majorca. An interesting proposition this one. The Morea was a rather tougher nut to crack that Thessaly. But a rich one. And it wouldn't be a good idea to forgo the requests of the House of Barcelona. Not when most of his men still felt loyal to them and he was bound to need their support. As soon as Larisa fell. No reason to let the effort already spent them go to waste. In the meantime his own envoys good go to Aydin to recruit mercenaries...
Castrogiovanni, June 1315
The Sicilian parlianent, sans the representatives of eastern Sicily who had refused to join and had instead held a rival parliament in Catane proclaimed "Alexandros, the schismatic so called duke of Syracuse" a traitor to the kingdom of Sicily and condemned him to death. The royal army was already on the march to invade Vatatzes holdings just as the Sicilian fleet took to the sea.
Glarentza, Peloponnese, July 1315
Infante Ferdinand, landed near the port at the head of 500 knights and a large number of infantrymen. He would soon be joined by John II Orsini in besieging the city. The count palatine of Cephalonia was the only of the great Achaean lords to survive Vatatzes invasion by surrendering when he had the opportunity. But this did not mean he liked his new overlords. If nothing else his three sisters had all been married to various dispossessed lords in the principality. Then they were too overbearing for his tastes. Sooner or later Theodore would find an excuse to try to remove him. Better preempt him...
Hmm Bernat going for war this quickly in support of Frederick will be very interesting. This would strain the Vatatzes a lot considering their main realms would be attacked (hopefully the knights hospitaler won't be dog piling them but it's very possible).
The only somewhat good thing about the situation is that Robert will help him against the Sicilians at the very least, while making him unable to ally with the Catalans.
The only somewhat good thing about the situation is that Robert will help him against the Sicilians at the very least, while making him unable to ally with the Catalans.
Bye bye Frederick, it was nice knowing you.
Are the Aragonese willing to back Frederick in any way?
Are the Aragonese willing to back Frederick in any way?
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It does seem like things quite quickly turned against House Vatatzes, however we are seeing none of their preparations, intelligence gathering, etc. Alexandros has been preparing for something like this long before he walked out of parliament. I am surprised by the seeming coordination between Greece and Sicily, that seems a bit like dramatic license to me. Based on the levels of competence involved I think there's a good chance of Theodore defeating Ferdinand before he can link up with the Catalans and the Vatatzes fleet crushing Frederick's leaving House Vatatzes in a very strong position. Subsequently defeating the Catalans might be a nice opportunity for rapproachment between Constantinople and the Vatatzes.